What? There are entire businesses based in this. It's called medical tourism.

Do you really think you can go to Canada and take advantage of their health care system without being a citizen?

Don't worry, the Senate will probably kill it.

...the innovation that it funds and the personal freedoms it allows. Those points are a huge, huge deal and reason the border-hopping happens. The rest of the industrialized word's healthcare gets a failing grade on that count alone.

If you need a procedure done fast and well, you come to America. If you want something done cheap and eventually, you go to Canada. I guess it depends on whether you have cancer or erectile dysfunction.
Money out of the free market and into the government = loss of financial independence on a national scale. When the government grows, we grow more dependent on it. And of course I'm not saying insurance companies will disappear because of the public option, I'm saying it's going to result in a burden on the medical economy. If there's less money in medicine, there's less innovation in medicine.

Are you saying that Americans go to Canada or that Canadians go to America?

I've already answered all of these in my earlier comments.

And I disagreed with your assumptions.

Whatever. I have a program to write, and I always seem to find a good discussion when a due date is approaching. Ending it here is doing me a service ;)

I'm not ending, I'm just putting it off.

What assumptions do you disagree with? It seems to me that I say something, and you just repeat what you claim without paying any attention to what I am saying or what implementing reform would actually mean.

I'm paying very close attention to your words, and you're making your point very clearly. You're saying the government getting into the insurance business is not a negative factor in America's financial independence. I disagree. Higher premiums than some insurance companies does not justify this view. The fact that it's an option doesn't either.

The government competing against insurance companies will make people more dependent on the government. Go ahead and argue whether or not that's bad thing (I say it is), but nothing you've said contradicts the basic premise.

dp

Of course you can. I'm not a citizen, and I enjoy (almost)the same rights and freedoms as a citizen here.

What do you think happens to a visitor who comes here and needs medical services? "Sorry, you're not a resident, go away"? Umm, no. They'll just bill you for it.

American medical tourists save 30-60% by coming up here, for quality of health care that is equal to that of US.

Once again... the facts do not get in the way of dogma... do you make over $500,000 a year Josh? If not... the tax increase doesn't apply to you. But that's only what I've read and not what the Right tells me...

How will it make people more dependent on the government if private insurers will be able to compete with it successfully?

I fail to understand how private insurance sector somehow positively affects the innovation in the field it insures. Do private car insurance companies somehow drive the innovation in car industry? Does governmental car insurances (like we have over here) somehow stifle the innovation in automotive business?

I could see the point if we were talking about privatizing the entire health care industry, but this is not the case.


Privatized health insurance doesn't lead to level of competition where the product it offers would be functional. If it did, Americans would have a working health care system that was accessible to everyone. Right now it's a crippled failure that at best serves as an example how capitalism and market forces cannot be trusted with the vital parts of a functional society.

My bet is on "Never"

My hope is on "Never".



I'm opposed to this Health Care for many reasons. Some of them have already been covered in this thread. (Just look for those who expressed their opinions and got downvoted for it)


To re-word what Josh had said earlier about not wanting to pay for other people's health care:

Look at welfare (and make no mistake about this...it *IS* medical welfare)...The concept of welfare is a good one - to help those who are below the poverty line that needs help getting back on their feet.

But welfare was NEVER intended to be used and abused like it is. People were never supposed to be on welfare their entire lives. It was supposed to be a helping hand...to make it through the rough times...to end when their back on their feet.

The welfare abusers are everywhere. I know for a FACT there are people getting welfare checks and food stamps, but have 64 inch HD flat screen TVs with Dish Network getting 250 channels to include HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc. - walking around with iPhones, having Playstations and high speed internet.

I know for a FACT there are women out there on welfare that when they want more money, they just have another kid.

I pay for that. I don't have any problem helping those who need help...I have a HUGE problem helping those who are just f**king lazy and working the system.





Government Health Care is the same thing. If you are between jobs, down on your luck, etc...then I have ZERO problem helping you out. But if your just too lazy to get a job and you want to live on the government teat...then I'm 100% against it.



Why should you punish me for busting my ass, getting my degree and getting a high paying job and reward those who stay home, have kids, and never work?

When I went to college, I was working two jobs, paying a mortgage, and had a wife and two kids at home...and I STILL managed to graduate with honors and I paid for my own school (actually, I'm still paying on my student loans)....so don't tell me I had it easier than anyone else.





I also have a problem with the current health care reform bill because it will also give full medical benefits to illegal aliens. (I have NO problem with those who have come into the country legally). Obama's answer to illegals? Grant them all blanket citizenship. OH HELL NO.

The report on NPR this morning said the bill that passed went out of its way to exclude, explicitly, illegal immigrants.

NPR and ABC are reporting differently, then.

Read HERE: there are no immigration-related restrictions on who can participate President Obama’s proposed health insurance exchanges;

CNN is also reporting the same: While the report found that federal subsidies to obtain health coverage would be restricted to U.S. citizens and legal residents, it also noted that the bill does not specify a citizenship verification system, something that critics say creates a loophole for undocumented immigrants to receive subsidies anyway.

NPR being radio, I don't have a clip handy. But
this Bloomberg side-by-side comparison says while that may be what the president *wants*...both bills exclude illegal immigrants.
"Under the House proposal, about 18 million non-elderly people, including millions of illegal immigrants, would lack coverage, the CBO estimated. The Senate Finance Committee plan would leave about 25 million uninsured, a third of them illegal immigrants, the CBO said on Oct. 7."

And your own source, the CNN one, says: "The bill specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving payments, but opponents of the reform say that without verification, the system is open to abuse.

...
Because they don't qualify for federal money, undocumented immigrants who want health insurance would pay full freight for coverage, he said."

So...coverage if they can pay for it themselves, without a hefty tax break. Scary.

But if we lived in a Josh-ruled country then all the answers to all our problems would be so simple and easy to do.

On another note, give the un-insured some coverage, great. But don't forget about those of us who have commercial insurance. Those insurance companies need to be regulated. My daughter had to have an emergency apendectomy. Now if I lose my job and have to get insurance through someone else, my premiums to cover her would be outrageous and there would be lots of pre-existing crap to go through. My grandma had an episode a few years back where they thought she had had a stroke. She didn't but now she is considered high risk and pays more than $700 a month for her medicare and supplemental insurance. She can't get a different supplement because of being high risk, they won't even accept her. We need healthcare reform, but I would rather see them reforming the insurance companies out there right now.

So...do you honestly think, that people who choose to live here illegally, who currently abuse the emergency rooms (since nobody, regardless of insurance, can be turned away from an emergency room), will choose to "pay full freight for coverage" when there IS NO VALIDATION IN PLACE where they have to prove they are here legally? When all they have to do is lie about it?


Here - I have this huge bowl of money sitting on my front porch. Please don't take any of it, because it's my money. But I will leave it on my porch...at night...with my porch light off...while I'm out of town...with a flashing neon sign pointing to it saying "Bowl Full of Money!!"

I certainly expect all that money to still be there when I get back.